Xenharmonic Guitarist

General => Instruments => Topic started by: Easy Listening on October 30, 2011, 06:12:44 AM

Title: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on October 30, 2011, 06:12:44 AM
Thought I would photograph my axes to post - would love to see your collections !

FreeNote / G&L Tribute 12-Tone-Ultra Plus, an addictive instrument:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/FN12.jpg)

FreeNote / G&L Tribute 19-edo. Harmonic Design pickups are my favorite:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/19edo.jpg)

Sword Guitars / Ibanez RG 22-edo (this one's been posted here before):
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/22-edo.jpg)

Sword Guitars / Epi 24edo:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Epi24.jpg)

Scalloped Squier Stagemaster:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/ScallopedElectric.jpg)

Scalloped Ibanez:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/ScallopedAcoustic.jpg)

Fretless Peavy Cirrus 6:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Cirrus6a.jpg)

Electric sitar - very cheap, not playable grade. Replaced tuners w/ Sperzels (installed tuners were helpless) and installed straplocks (can't sit w/ it as the jack is where you'd rest it on your foot, or the floor). Even so the electronics are bunk. I'm going to try to make this more usable but it makes me want a new Belgian one :)
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Sitar.jpg)

Viola - always loved them, but find it difficult to relate to ...
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/viola.jpg)

Project guitars:

S500 that will become a FreeNote I'm sure:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/S500.jpg)

A weird old Samick I'm refinishing and retooling, for conversion:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Samick.jpg)

Ibanez 5-string for conversion:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Ibanez5.jpg)

Mockingbird "Calibre" for conversion:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Mockingbird.jpg)

Parker PM20 for conversion:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Parker.jpg)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Mark Allan Barnes on October 30, 2011, 08:41:26 AM
I like your collection a lot. What are the extra notes on the FreeNote / G&L Tribute 12-Tone-Ultra Plus?
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on October 30, 2011, 09:55:28 AM
What are the extra notes on the FreeNote / G&L Tribute 12-Tone-Ultra Plus?

"These new frets are 7th, 11th, and 13th Harmonics straight from the Harmonic Series ..."
from http://www.freenotemusic.com/site/store/guitars.html (http://www.freenotemusic.com/site/store/guitars.html)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on October 30, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
^ I don't honestly understand what that means, and I'm struggling to understand what this guitar represents. However I found it from the first moment to be effortlessly musical, and just to touch it liberates my ears. I've also noticed when playing alongside bass that it's possible to find notes that are even more tuned, beginning to tap into the JI implications. When I play it by myself I find that it allows easy access to "wrong notes" that were severely lacking in my palette. One thing I have noticed but cannot explain is that extra frets which come behind the major fret points, come very close behind (5, 7, 9, 12) and are otherwise placed somewhere closer but not exactly on a quartertone. I'd love to learn more about what this is and how this mentality could produce for example an "11-," "17-," or "23-tone-ultra plus."
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Ron on October 31, 2011, 04:51:34 PM
Nice post. Nice guitars!
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Mat on October 31, 2011, 06:34:31 PM
Interesting collection ... good to see a 6 string fretless bass and a sitar in there. I'm essentially a guitarist who restrings and plays basses so i would be very interested to see that 5 string Ibanez refretted. There aren't many microtonal basses around so that would be good to see :)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on October 31, 2011, 06:40:22 PM
I'm essentially a guitarist who restrings and plays basses
Do you mean you play on 34" scale with thinner strings?
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Mat on November 01, 2011, 03:38:28 PM
Yep :)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on November 02, 2011, 10:40:45 AM
Can't stop thinking about it. What strings do you choose?
Do you play baritone also?
I assume your truss rods are loosened way out. What's that like long-term on an instrument?

I've heard of one bass player who uses banjo strings ... forget who.

In terms of microtonal basses I'll have a 19-edo to post before a week is up.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Mat on November 02, 2011, 04:38:40 PM
Here it is, normal 12ET fretting, 35" scale. Currently bass nickel roundwound .045 .035 .025 plus guitar plain steel .016p .013p .010p (guitar strings of sufficient length with old bass-ball ends threaded onto them). Tuned in either 3.5 semitone neutral thirds for 24EDO or alternating major / minor Just thirds for Just Intonation. I have a thread detailing this microtuning for 12ET instruments here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/161530-retune-play-quartertone-scales-microtonal-beginners-guide.html (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/161530-retune-play-quartertone-scales-microtonal-beginners-guide.html).
I miss the baritone pitches so i'm planning to restring one string lower, adding a .060. The truss rods are only a fraction of a turn away from loose, i assumed less stress on a neck is a good thing as long as they don't rattle. Before i discovered microtonality in 2008 my 6 string basses were tuned in fifths EBF#C#G#D# for a range of almost 5 octaves covering the range of bass and guitar, i used to use a .070 for the low bass E and a special .007 for the top D#. A baritone is tempting for the close string spacing that makes strumming easier, it would have to be 30" scale minimum.
No recordings of this tuning yet ... currently musically very unproductive, making digital art instead :)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/parramatta/DSC01713.jpg)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on November 03, 2011, 02:34:04 PM
So amazing! Beautiful bass, btw - thanks for sharing about the strings and tunings. I love playing tuned to 3rds & 5ths - never thought about using  the neutral third. For 5ths I tried getting the CGDAEG "New Standard" but even after success (combining 3 sets of strings) I decided to put it away until I can score a fanned guitar.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Mat on November 04, 2011, 04:18:09 PM
Yeah Robert Fripp has been a big influence on me and was the inspiration for me to start tuning in fifths in 1996.
On the subject of tunings, how do you tune your various guitars? And / or what tunings have you tried?
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on November 05, 2011, 05:01:10 AM
It's funny, right now I'm really trying to learn how to play a guitar tuned "normally" (normal being slightly abnormal on a non-12). I have been playing the 24-edo in modals, however; right now it's on EADEAE.

When I was a kid I was really into Sonic Youth and scordatura. I wasn't following any kind of advice (didn't know of any) and was just experimenting. I had various tunings, in many of which I had written songs, all written on a poetry scrapbook like 0/7/7/3/1 ... etc. I wasn't even using a reference for e.g. the A string, just all by ear. At this point how much I would love to find that scrapbook! But it's probably long gone.

During this time many of these tunings employed unisons, 5ths, and semitones.

When I started playing again a year ago, I fell in love with modal tunings, 3rds (avant-jazz hello) and "New standard tuning." But yeah, for right now I'm mostly playing normal tuning, which only adds to the challenge, as I never related to it in the first place ;-)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on November 05, 2011, 07:00:32 AM
New in collection, FreeNote / G&L 19-edo 5-string:
(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/fn19b.jpg)
She looks, feels, & sounds great. Playing 19- bass is kind of relieving actually ...
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Ron on November 07, 2011, 08:14:25 PM
def think we need a "pictures" section...  :)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on November 08, 2011, 05:18:28 AM
def think we need a "pictures" section...  :)
That would be sweet :)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: EricJacksonArts on December 02, 2011, 06:20:09 PM
^ I don't honestly understand what that means, and I'm struggling to understand what this guitar represents. However I found it from the first moment to be effortlessly musical, and just to touch it liberates my ears. I've also noticed when playing alongside bass that it's possible to find notes that are even more tuned, beginning to tap into the JI implications. When I play it by myself I find that it allows easy access to "wrong notes" that were severely lacking in my palette. One thing I have noticed but cannot explain is that extra frets which come behind the major fret points, come very close behind (5, 7, 9, 12) and are otherwise placed somewhere closer but not exactly on a quartertone. I'd love to learn more about what this is and how this mentality could produce for example an "11-," "17-," or "23-tone-ultra plus."

If we think of 12TET as an Approximation of 5 Limit Music (expressing tonality no greater than the 5th harmonic) than the 12 Tone Ultra Plus adds frets that keep 12TET but allow the player to access the 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonics of a variety of fundamentals.

For example, if you play the common "D7" shape in open position, you'd have Open D on the 4th string, an A fretted at the 2nd fret of the 3rds string, a C, fretted at the first fret of the 2nd string, and an F# fretted at the second fret of the 1st string.
Traditional Fretting:
e-2
b-1
g-3
d-0
a-x
e-x

The 12 Tone ultra plus would give you access to the 7/4 of D, which is C Half-Flat. That new 'first fret' before the traditional first fret, allows you to flatten a note by it's septimal value.

Therefore you could play a D Pure 7 chord by lowering the C in a standard D7 to C Half-Flat. Playing an A minor shape with this C half-flat instead of the regular C will give you a 7/6 ratio, sometimes known as the "Half-Minor" chord.

Hope this helps. The 12 Tone Ultra Plus is a fantastic system. I'll be getting one soon myself.

Have you read Jon Catler's book The Nature of Music ? If not, I highly recommend it! It helped me a lot. Of course studying with Jon in person helps more, but his book is close!
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on December 03, 2011, 04:43:19 AM
Thank you so much! I've read (and watched videos) about harmonic limits many times, but your initial sentence finally made it all :click:

I do have that book, and have tried to read it and other things. My main problem with all of this is that as a child I rejected both math and music, liking none of what I could imagine applicable, and went "off path" - using only my ears, and only intuition. Nobody around at that time (Bible belt, 1970s-80s) tried to show me that this type of discipline could transcend itself and apply to very interesting things, e.g. microtonality (music) or engineering (math).  Now I'm a medical language specialist who might rather have been an engineer.

The way you've just explained this guitar really cracked the nut to a deeper level for me. No offense to all the others who have explained limits on this forum - when I reread those posts they I'll probably get more out of them! Or probably they lead to a point of ripening where ...

Cheers, Eric. It really is a great guitar. Would love to see a picture of yours when you get it :)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: EricJacksonArts on December 20, 2011, 06:33:10 PM
Glad I could help!

It is my goal to make this stuff as easy to understand as possible. It is simply too wonderful a theory to vanish unnoticed, so I'm absolutely glad that you understand this stuff a bit more.


I'm going to have a custom neck made up for an Ibanez 7 string of mine; that is when I get some cash together! Hopefully within the next few months. When I have it, I will have many pics, videos, and sound available.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Ron on December 22, 2011, 01:32:42 AM
Thank you so much! I've read (and watched videos) about harmonic limits many times, but your initial sentence finally made it all :click:

I do have that book, and have tried to read it and other things. My main problem with all of this is that as a child I rejected both math and music, liking none of what I could imagine applicable, and went "off path" - using only my ears, and only intuition. Nobody around at that time (Bible belt, 1970s-80s) tried to show me that this type of discipline could transcend itself and apply to very interesting things, e.g. microtonality (music) or engineering (math).  Now I'm a medical language specialist who might rather have been an engineer.

The way you've just explained this guitar really cracked the nut to a deeper level for me. No offense to all the others who have explained limits on this forum - when I reread those posts they I'll probably get more out of them! Or probably they lead to a point of ripening where ...

Cheers, Eric. It really is a great guitar. Would love to see a picture of yours when you get it :)

Hey Jinpa I just realized theres a second page on this topic-

One thing worth mentioning is that each equal temperament functions as a subgroup of harmonics.  so If you like the say 7th 11th and  13th harmonics. 26-tone would allow for you to have the standard diatonic scale, but also consistent 13-limit harmony on all 26 steps-being able to modulate anywhere with 13limit chords. the chord 4:7:11:13 chord is super clean in 26 and can be modulated anywhere.

When someone talks about a certain temperament supporting the 7-limit, or 5-limit they are talking about prime limit. Below I've posted information about odd-limit which has to do with chords.

12-tone does good with 5 limit but you also have the 17th harmonic- so you can do 8:9:10:12:14:15:17:19, and 8:9:14:17 chords all over on all 12 steps in the 12tone scale. If we only consider up to the 5th harmonic- 12-edo has 3.1 cents of TE error in the 5-limit, and the next best ET do do this well in 7-limit would be 19, with 26, 27 and 29-tone being the best under 31. So from best to worst in 7-limit we have 31, 27, 19, 22 - and then 29, 26 as just slightly worse than 12 is in 5 limit.. that's the full 7-limit..

for 5-limit the next thats more accurate than 12 is 17tone.

another example- Bohlen Pierce scale is based on 3rd 5th and 7th harmonics, so it can be called a subgroup of 3.5.7 JI.... while sixteen tone having octaves (2nd harmonic) is like 2.5.7 or 2.3.5.7 depending on whether you accept the fifths.

basically all Et's have little subgroup windows into just intonation sonorities in one way or another, its just up to you to figure out what scales and tetrachords you like, what harmony you want to experiment with, and how crazy you want to get. We recently realized on the tuning list and on xenharmonic alliance, that LsL and LLs type tetrachords with 5/4 on the outer diad is in many of these new MOS scales like mavila, maqamic, and others. So the key it seems to get these scales really internalized is to work on melody as well.

heres some info on odd-limits:

The n-limit is the set all ratios of all odd numbers no greater than odd-number n, i.e., those ratios with odd factors no larger than n. Any ratio belonging to the n-limit is termed an "n-limit ratio".
The 3-limit consists of the following ratios, and all their octave-equivalents: 1/1, 4/3, 3/2.
The 5-limit consists of the following ratios, and all their octave-equivalents: 1/1, 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3.
The 7-limit consists of the following ratios, and all their octave-equivalents: 1/1, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 12/7, 7/4.
The 9-limit consists of the following ratios, and all their octave-equivalents: 1/1, 10/9, 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 14/9, 8/5, 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 16/9, 9/5.
The 11-limit consists of the following ratios, and all their octave-equivalents: 1/1, 12/11, 11/10, 10/9, 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 11/9, 5/4, 14/11, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 16/11, 3/2, 14/9, 11/7, 8/5, 18/11 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 16/9, 9/5, 20/11, 11/6.
Partch considered these ratios to be the sets of intervals more concordant, and hence each higher limit represented to him a successively more inclusive standard for intervallic concordance. When interpreted as a set of pitches instead of as a set of intervals, the n-limit is known as the "n-limit Tonality Diamond" (Monzo)

A chord in Just Intonation where the largest odd factor in the terms making up the harmonic, or "otonal", representation of the chord (that is, its representation as an M-term frequency ratio where M is the number of notes in the chord) is an odd number no higher than n, is said to be within the "otonal limit" n. Examples:

    * The Just Major Triad, 4:5:6, is within "otonal limit" 5 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Pythagorean Suspended Fourth chord, 6:8:9, is within "otonal limit" 9 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Major Seventh chord, 8:10:12:15, is within "otonal limit" 15 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Minor Seventh chord, 10:12:15:18, is within "otonal limit" 15 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Minor Triad, 10:12:15, is within "otonal limit" 15 (or any higher odd number).

A chord in Just Intonation where all interval-ratios belong to the n-limit, is said to be within the "intervallic limit" or "odd-limit" n.
 Examples:
    * The Just Major Triad, 4:5:6, contains one occurrence of the interval 3:2, one occurrence of the interval 5:4, and one occurrence of the interval 6:5. Hence the chord is within "odd-limit" 5 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Pythagorean Suspended Fourth chord, 6:8:9, contains one occurrence of the interval 3:2, one occurrence of the interval 4:3, and one occurrence of the interval 9:8. Hence the chord is within "odd-limit" 9 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Major Seventh chord, 8:10:12:15, contains two occurrences of the interval 3:2, two occurrences of the interval 5:4, one occurrence of the interval 6:5, and one occurrence of the interval 15:8. Hence the chord is within "odd-limit" 15 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Minor Seventh chord, 10:12:15:18, contains two occurrences of the interval 3:2, two occurrences of the interval 6:5, one occurrence of the interval 5:4, and one occurrence of the interval 9:5. Hence the chord is within "odd-limit" 9 (or any higher odd number).
    * The Just Minor Triad, 10:12:15, contains one occurrence of the interval 3:2, one occurrence of the interval 5:4, and one occurrence of the interval 6:5. Hence the chord is within "odd-limit" 5 (or any higher odd number).

the part that can get confusing is the difference between odd-limit and prime-limit

10:12:15 would be 15 odd-limit (as odd limit typically has to do with chords) and is 5-prime limit.

Alot of people think limits suck., and reason is because there are no limits in the ear. They're what we're stuck with because we haven't worked out infinite-limit temperaments just yet.

Someone can say - "22-edo is a great 5-limit temperament" but you can play 4:5:6:7:9:11 any time you want in it. They're mainly useful mathematically and can in some cases be useful as a compositional tool to limit yourself to simpler chords or what not but they're not "real" in a certain sense.  That is where things get a little hazy.

Hope this clears up any haze about limit and odd limit - special thanks to Mike Battaglia and Gene Ward Smith on this post the limit info can be found on genes site.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on December 22, 2011, 02:52:54 PM
Thank you so much!
I had to read this several times before I could understand a lot of it, but after a while this became very inspiring and educational.

I really appreciate everyone posting on this forum! Thanks to all of you!
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on December 22, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
BTW I cut a hole in the back of my sitar today. This was the total of the electronics in it:

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/Sitar_Electronics.jpg)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on December 23, 2011, 05:30:29 PM
19-edo: replaced the pots, knobs, jack, & saddles. Big difference actually.

I'm feeling more and more that whatever guitar I might buy, I want to redo the hardware anyway.

Today, inspired by Ron's post yesterday, I learned a classic Acid Mothers Temple tune but in 19-edo. FUN.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/P1040981.jpg)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Ron on December 23, 2011, 08:44:37 PM
19-edo: replaced the pots, knobs, jack, & saddles. Big difference actually.

I'm feeling more and more that whatever guitar I might buy, I want to redo the hardware anyway.

Today, inspired by Ron's post yesterday, I learned a classic Acid Mothers Temple tune but in 19-edo. FUN.

([url]http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/P1040981.jpg[/url])


Dude you gotta do some 19 or 22 AMT -style stuff!!! Do something similar but just out there in one of your tunings... That would be sick.
Do you have any bassist or drummer friends? It would be cool to see a everyone get together little projects.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on December 24, 2011, 06:02:10 AM
Dude you gotta do some 19 or 22 AMT -style stuff!!! Do something similar but just out there in one of your tunings... That would be sick.
Do you have any bassist or drummer friends? It would be cool to see a everyone get together little projects.

I posted a loop in 22 last night on http://soundcloud.com/karmajinpa (http://soundcloud.com/karmajinpa) that has (I think) (for me) an atypically listenable laid-back psychedelic vibe, but on my digicam of course. It was a spontaneous thing that happened after I'd been jamming on "Pink Lady Lemonade" for a while. Whenever I finally invest in a recording situation we'll see what happens ... lots of solo/multitrack/multiinstrument psych to be inspired by. For now the more I read, think, play different guitars ... what I'm working on is in rapid flux.

I do have some friends who play, and some of us jam occasionally (I always learn a lot) ... but if I ever succeed in being in a real band it'll be after my kids grow up, and I retire! I find it really hard to get together with people, as everyone has to make the time at the same time. One bassist friend and I have a date for 19-edo, now that I have both instruments, and he's really excited ... but already the months are rolling by.

AMT inspires me in this way too - never a need to stop rocking - I can hope to be in a band before all my hair is white ;-)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on February 18, 2012, 12:20:50 PM
The 22edo got some Semour Duncan Phat Cats & a 4-way tele switch. I did something wrong, and am going to need professional help, but already I can tell I like these pickups. Whether I like them better than Harmonic Design Z90s remains to be seen, pending correct wiring!

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp228/stereo-type/22SDs-1.jpg)
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on February 21, 2012, 11:02:30 AM
Still not wired the way I want, but at least working to some extent of properly, and I am amazed by these pickups. I always notice that my pedals act differently when fed by different electronics, and some of them act crappy when coupled with certain guitars. The Phat Cats pair better with every pedal on my board without prejudice.
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Ron on February 21, 2012, 11:13:43 AM
nice, you really like those harmonic designs. I wanna hear a giant 22-tone jam. haha
Title: Re: collection pics
Post by: Easy Listening on February 21, 2012, 11:18:11 AM
Ah, these are the same type, but by Semour Duncan. I might be converted!