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Author Topic: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard  (Read 77477 times)

Easy Listening

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Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« on: February 11, 2012, 08:53:08 AM »

I wanted to start a thread for this rather than continue to hijack matcooper's brilliant design thread.

Yeah a high G is right at the limit for mainstream strings, can't bend it much. Do you know about Octave 4 Plus who sell strings for high A and beyond? http://garrygoodman.com/octave4plus.com.htm. The low C is not particularly low, 7 string guitars have a B a semitone lower, 8 string guitars have a F# below that B string. Strings are being developed to sound good that low, you can get mainstream .080s and .090s, and thicker at O4P and i understand CKS will eventually do a flexible .106 with only 2 layers of wrap wire.

I always design sets using these tension charts http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf. i like tension to gently fall from low to high ...

G .008 14.7 pounds tension
E .010 16.2 standard E
A .015 16.2
D .026 18.4 standard D
G .042 20.9
C .064 21.6 EDIT: or perhaps .062 20.4

This is the equivalent of a 10-46 set, but with the low strings a little tighter. I think the key is to have a super flexible large gauge string on the bottom with plenty of tension to keep the vibration tight and with good tone. It's best to build a set from single strings to get a nice smooth gradient across the tensions.
Fripp himself gets good tone on a 25" Les Paul copy, so it must be possible :) You could always detune the whole tuning if you don't like the tight .008. I would encourage you to try again with better gauges and different strings ;)

Suggestion for CGDAEG equivalent to a 9-42 set ...

G .008 14.7 pounds tension
E .009 13.1 standard E
A .014 14.1
D .024 15.8 standard D
G .038 17.1
C .059 18.5 / .060 19.2 / .058 ?

The standard D and E are the same gauges as a 9-42 set. Here i break my rule of falling tension by having the high G a little tighter than the E below it. This helps to maintain the volume of the .008 relative to the other strings. Bending that high G is not a good idea ... however the standard E string is only 3 semitones lower so the trick is to do all your bending on that instead ;) I have used .060 bass strings for a guitar C and it felt a good tension.
My 6 string bass was tuned in all-fifths for years, it's my favourite tuning for 12ET.


So many thanks for those tips! Octave4plus will make anything and is an amazing resource, but maybe expensive for this stage of the experiment. So I ordered single Ernie Balls from juststrings in the "10 set" sizes, except i ended up with a 65 instead of 64.

I restrung my 19-tone with 5 of these 6 strings. The only problem is that a 65 will not fit into a Schaller locking tuner. Out of curiosity I tested a Sperzel locking tuner also, but they are even smaller caliber. So I wanted to try a 62 ... but the shipping from juststrings is $7 even for one string (probably other places but I don't know of one). Auspiciously however, my 22AWG wire measures 0.0615 inches in external diameter. It does not fit through the tuner, so the question is moot.

For the record, I then realized I could use steel piercing tapers to test the max, Schallers measuring at about 56 and Sperzels measuring at about 53.

So for that guitar the only option is replacing the one tuner ... and my first thought is with a bass tuner. This will look totally excellent I think but it will be a permanent mod since I'll have to bore the hole larger. I haven't decided whether to commit ...

But on first session I already lean that way. This combination of gauges is really perfect, totally natural feeling. And New Standard on a 19edo really unlocks the beauty of being able to modulate in 19. I normally pick around but in this tuning, the thing is a rhythm machine and very fun. I've previously tried it in 3rds, "Old Standard," and open and modular tunings (would love a 19edo banjo!)--New Standard for 19 is, I think, my favorite so far.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 01:46:55 PM by Easy Listening »
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 02:04:57 PM »

Wow i'm happy you like the gauges ... although i'm fairly confident when talking gauges it always amazes me if my suggestion works out well :D
There are posts over on sevenstring.org about fitting thick strings into guitar tuners. Some people peel off 2" of the outer wrap wire, but this has the danger of making the rest of the outer wrap loose and rattly. Many people bore out the hole in the tuner post with a drill, this is probably the best way, might as well try it if you're gonna replace that tuner anyway.
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 02:30:22 PM »

Wow i'm happy you like the gauges ... although i'm fairly confident when talking gauges it always amazes me if my suggestion works out well :D

Oh this setup is brilliant. I spent so much $ + time on it without coming up with anything nearly this buttery.

Quote from: matcooper
There are posts over on sevenstring.org about fitting thick strings into guitar tuners. Some people peel off 2" of the outer wrap wire, but this has the danger of making the rest of the outer wrap loose and rattly.

That sounds tedious and crappy TBH.

Quote from: matcooper
Many people bore out the hole in the tuner post with a drill, this is probably the best way, might as well try it if you're gonna replace that tuner anyway.

Good point--it had occurred to me but seemed really sketchy. Maybe I'll give that a shot. Still visualizing one bass tuner on the head though, something at least to divert my attention from the blah strat design to the surreal ... strong drilling pros: done and done / still usable in normal tuning, should I want to later.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 05:44:58 AM by Easy Listening »
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2012, 04:41:49 PM »

"Max. String Diameter: both the 3x3, and 6 in line sets can not fit any strings  larger then .058" diameter through the tuner post. 7 string guitar sets are made to accommodate the most common sized low -B- strings. However, If you need an extra large low -B- Sperzel, please contact me, and I can have Sperzel custom drill to a maximum of  .070" diameter at no extra charge." ...
http://www.tkinstruments.com/id94.htm
http://www.tkinstruments.com/id75.htm

Also this guy is a 5ths enthusiast ...
http://www.tkinstruments.com/5ths_tuned_guitar_and_bass.htm
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 04:44:55 PM by matcooper »
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2012, 07:25:20 PM »

Killer site :) :)

It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to drill out a Sperzel, but an added apprehension with the Schallers is that there is a built-in spring-loaded bullet that pushes up from the under/lock side, that seems would get ruined by drilling the hole larger ... found some entertaining reading though; one poster proved that the consensus (that you can't drill a Schaller) is untrue, with the brilliant no-brainer of using a fine object to hold down the bullet and drill one side at a time--but doesn't recommend doing this without a drill press, which I don't have ...

but amongst the reading I actually feel encouraged to try unwinding. What I haven't run across is how to finish it ... will it fray? Do you superglue it down, or is superglue on a flexible vibrating string an inherent fail?

Thanks for the posts & encouragement!
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 09:28:14 PM »

I don't have much experience of unwinding. Before and as you unwind very firmly grip the string with pliers at a point that will end up between nut and tuner, perhaps even crush the wrap wire against the core at that point (with a vice?) before and as you unwind, to lock the wrap wire to the core. Seems to me there's always a fair chance the string will be ruined.

8 string guitars are common now so there must be guitar tuners available with large holes somewhere. In the meantime a 56 for C will work but will be a little floppy, guitars shops tend to have 56s as singles.

Just saw your 22EDO has a floyd rose type trem? ... does that Ernieball 65 have a length of exposed core at the end? If so you can trim the string at the ball end only, by the exact amount that gives you that 2-3 inches of exposed core to wind around and through the tuner post.
Core only around the tuner post has a smaller radius and so creates a higher ratio and more tuning precision. The tuner post has more leverage on the string / the string has less leverage on the tuner post ... so a firmer anchoring of string ;)

I believe there's more saddle movement with a FR trem so more chance of intonating a 65.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 10:04:27 PM by matcooper »
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 05:39:37 AM »

Yeah, 56 I had tried before, probably because it was the biggest the shop had. Too floppy for me, not very satisfying. IIRC my prior setup jumped down from 43 to 56 ... like a weak punchline.

That's a very good idea about Floyd trems (and a wonderful realization regarding radius vs. ratio!), but the 19edo is the one getting the 5ths (for now) ... it has a normal G&L strat bridge. The bridge & saddles actually fit a 65 fine!

& yes, the saddle on a Floyd can be moved quite a bit ... but the 22 actually has a "Edge Pro II" bridge, IDK but probably also very flexible. Lol, I recently changed the 22 from all 4ths to more of a standard tuning, and it's opening up to me like crazy, so I don't feel the need to change that right now. It's actually in the middle of a mod also, and parts are strewn everywhere, but I'm just redoing the electronics (SD Phat Cats & 4-way tele switch, pics soon).

For 12, 19 and I imagine also 31 (at least) it seems that 5ths will be preferred ... I don't really know other edos which must inherently break away from the familiar.
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Gedankenwelt

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 08:11:26 AM »

On the topic of tuning in fifths: I heard Yyrkoon (a french Death Metal band) tuned their guitars to E B G D A E (in 12-EDO steps: 7 8 7 7 7), so it's somewhat "inverse" to the standard E A D G B E tuning, but with a 3 octave range. I didn't try it, because almost all of my guitars have 7 or 8 strings, but I guess that would be my first choice when tuning in fifths.
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 07:40:27 AM »

So, despite the amount of chatter regarding the difficulty or supposed impossibility, I easily drilled out a locking Schaller using nothing more than a spring clamp & hand drill.

I inserted a .062" bit, butt side in, from the other end to hold the locking ball down (repeated for the other side). I clamped the tuner in a spring clamp only so that I wouldn't be drilling at something I was holding in my fingers. Altogether it took only a few minutes.

The 19-edo is in New Standard, and intonation adjusted.

Thanks again @ matcooper; this is a dream come true for me.
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 06:27:27 PM »

Cool, well done. No fanning necessary ... :D ... How does the tension of the .065 work with the others?
I've realised why 19EDO is so good for NST, since you are essentially creating a meantone temperament by stacking flattened fifths. Meantone temperament is the method of creating a scale by stacking slightly flattened fifths such that 4 stacked fifths gets close to the Just Intonation major third at 386 cents. NST in 19EDO is stacking fifths of 695 cents such that 4 stacked fifths gets you from C to an E of 379 cents.
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 07:14:19 PM »

I think I have the idea, so the same is going to apply to 31? :D :D
Don't have the math mastered ... probably never will ...
Can't wait!

The 65 on first impression feels fine, a little odd just because totally a bass string--but it sounds wicked, at least on Z90 pickups, a little thinner might be better (will see eventually) but it does work with the set and does what it should.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 07:23:53 PM by Easy Listening »
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 11:39:00 PM »

Yeah 31EDO is very close to '1/4 comma meantone temperament' ... 4 stacked fifths of 697 cents = 387 cents (JI major third 5/4 = 386 cents) so even closer than 19EDO.

When i design tunings sometimes i like to make the 2 lowest strings the same tension (instead of the lowest string tighter) to reduce the thickness of the lowest string, so that it's not overly fat, stiff and bassy. A .062 C might be the optimum.
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Mat

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 05:04:49 PM »

Thought you may be interested to know that there are extensions to the intervals of NST. In an interview with Robert Fripp in the early 1990s he stated the 7 string Crafty tuning to be CGDAEGA. The added high interval is a tone. Of course that top A is almost impossible to achieve so he was stating it theoretically, relative to C, showing it's relationship to NST.
When lower intervals are added they are always fifths. Trey Gunn is a Crafty guitarist who plays an 8 string 34" scale Warr Guitar, and tunes it BbFCGDACD, intervals are 5th 5th 5th 5th 5th min3 2nd. Markus Reuter and the European Touch Guitar Circle also tune their 8 string Touchguitar U8s this way.
The narrow high intervals are useful for reducing the pitch range of a multi-string guitar which would otherwise be too large in all-fifths. Also there is a choice to include 1, 2 or neither of the narrow intervals to fine tune the range to your preference.
My first experience of playing a guitar in a Crafty tuning was not NST but CGDACD: 5th 5th 5th min3 2nd. I used this because a normal set of guitar strings can be retuned, unlike NST which needs a standard B tuned up to E.
Chords with close voicing high up are fascinating ...
For CGDACD:
E-2
B+1
G+2
D
A-2
E-4
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 05:09:15 PM by matcooper »
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Easy Listening

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2012, 03:35:56 PM »

That's awesome, thanks for the post. I used to always end any tuning with a semitone ... I do like that final small interval; as you say the chords can sound crazed.

7-string in 12et seems great in 3rds for free noodles & normal range but an expanded NST is even more exciting imho.
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Gedankenwelt

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Re: Tuning in 5ths / New Standard
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 11:39:35 AM »

I've realised why 19EDO is so good for NST, since you are essentially creating a meantone temperament by stacking flattened fifths. Meantone temperament is the method of creating a scale by stacking slightly flattened fifths such that 4 stacked fifths gets close to the Just Intonation major third at 386 cents. NST in 19EDO is stacking fifths of 695 cents such that 4 stacked fifths gets you from C to an E of 379 cents.
Yes, the 1/4 comma meantone fifth is obtained by dividing the 5th harmonic (5:1) in 4 equal parts, and stacking mt fifths reverses this procedure. You not only get the major third this way, but the major third + 2 octaves, which is exactly the 5th harmonic. :)

19EDO is btw extremely close to 1/3 comma meantone temperament, and 3 stacked 19EDO fifths are only 0.15 cents lower than a major sixth 5:3 (+ 1 octave). 19EDO has also the nice property that 5 stacked minor thirds are nearly a major third, and 6 stacked minor thirds are nearly a perfect fifth (octaves ignored).
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